[Assam] Aryan Invasion Theory debunked by DNA evidence to thecontrary ?

Mon Oct 3 15:41:14 EDT 2005

Dear Mukul and Dilip-da,

I got some more points - on language and race. 

SANSKRITis the basis for ALL languages in India - from Malayam in Keral (Southern most - Dravidian place) and up north for Hindi, Punjabi to Assamese (?) , Bengali, Nepali etc . 

Indeed there are many words in English, Greek etc which have same root as Sanskrit words - but then English has so many words "imported" from other languages - like potato or jungle or dacoits - etc . Isn't it possible they "imported" these words from India long ago - just they did the symbol "zero" and all the numbers 1, 2 , 3 etc.

Race: Indians look more like Egyptians ( I was reading the tales by a Greek traveller in Alexander's era - who made that comparison and said that comparison was common) than like Uzbeks. Also Punjabis, North Indians also look more like Spanish, Tunisians, Libyans  than they look like Germans or Central Asians -central asians look more like Chinese (?) - Uzbeks, Kyrghiz, Turkmenistan etc.

Conclude:  I would conclude that just like races developed depending on geographical factors - so those Africans who migrated to India 40,000 years ago (as per recent Gene mapping of human civilization) - developed into different races in Indian subcontinent - and later - migrated to Europe , East Asia etc - carrying with them the langauge they had started speaking here. 

This migration from Africa=> India => Europe/East Asia 40,000 years ago has become visible thanks to gene mapping in year 2005.
These article/scholar reports about human migration thru India to Africa etc
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:SM5oonTIZUoJ:pritch.bsd.uchicago.edu/publications/Yarticle.pdf+gene+migration+from+africa+to+India+&hl=en

 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7489681/ (Human migration projects starts) 

http://www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/14ihiws/projects/projects16.html (results) 

Umesh

mc mahant <mikemahant at hotmail.com> wrote:

<<<Dilip wrote
Invasion may not be true but migration must be. Civilizations grew with water. Wherever there was water, human beings flocked. If Central Asia started drying up, won't it make sense for the Central Asians to move to Iran and India, looking for an easier life? The banks of Sindhu and Ganga provided that. >>>

Thanks to our thorough academic researcher Umesh, for making us updated with history--may all young people store these in their memory banks for life---and thanks to Dilip for inviting a fresh look foe the reasons of migrating.

Migration brings in vocabulary-and it stays for a long  long time.

If Iran and Indians were that close ,we see no similarity in  words used. Urdu evolved  only after the Moghuls came in from Uzbekistan via their recent Afghan territories. Yes, water was and is a driving force.

Looking for clues towards affinity let us go for LOOKS.

Look at a group photo of Armenians, Georgians, Anatolian Turks, Uzbeks from Andizhan, and Sindhis/Punjabis. Can you make out who is from where?

Also look at the closeness of Russian/Sanskrit/Hindi grammar.Look even at simple folk sayings 'Gdye Dwim taam Agon' =where there is Dhumra(smoke), there is Agni(fire). How close can you get .There has no doubt been migrations both ways. This is not to say that "We North Indian Hindus are trueblueblood Super race-thesame as Germans--and our victorious Superior Aryan ancestors drove the inferior Dravidians down under".

I still beleive that my " A few horsrmen--local Fillies---highly diluted---"theory is closest.

And as Malabika said "How does it really matter--".

mm

---------------------------------

From:  umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
Reply-To:  umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu
To:  Dilip/Dil Deka <dilipdeka at yahoo.com>, "Roy, Santanu" <sroy at mail.smu.edu>, Rajib Das <rajibdas at yahoo.com>, mc mahant <mikemahant at hotmail.com>
CC:  assam at assamnet.org
Subject:  Re: [Assam] Aryan Invasion Theory debunked by DNA evidence to thecontrary ?
Date:  Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:15:19 +0100 (BST)

The word "Aryan" is of India-Iranian use ONLY - as a noble or superior. It was only after British and other scholars popularized the use of the word "Aryan Race"  -- as a superior race - that Europeans --esp Hitler took control of the word.

Thankfully, now we can access all data relating to the origins of this theory on the internet : here is some that should be a self explanatory blow to those still using the outdated theory of Aryan Invasion etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race

"The word Aryan was originally used in various Indo-Iranian languages with a meaning roughly similar to "noble" or "honorable", and was sometimes used by the speakers of these languages to refer to themselves.

In the 19th century, the term was used a synonym for "Indo-European" and also more restrictively, to refer to the Indo-Iranian languages, and later arose a nation propagated most assiduously by the Conte de Gobineau and later by his disciple Houston Stewart Chamberlain, of an "Aryan race", those who spoke Indo-European languages.

Since then the word has also been used by various European and Indian nationalist and racist movements, most notably in the ideology of the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nazi) Party, to refer to a supposed "master race" claimed to consist of those of 
Northern European descent.

Largely because of this association with Nazi and imperialist racism the word "Aryan" is now somewhat, much like the Hindu symbol of the swastika, tainted and considered taboo in European and North American culture. However because it continues to be in use by many non-racists, especially in South Asia and Iran, one should never assume that the term "Aryan" appearing by itself necessarily denotes racism or white supremacy.

Support for the superiority of the Aryan race is sometimes referred to as Aryanism. This should not be confused with the unrelated religious belief known as Arianism.

Umesh

Dilip/Dil Deka <dilipdeka at yahoo.com> wrote: 

Invasion may not be true but migration must be. Civilizations grew with water. Wherever there was water, human beings flocked. If Central Asia started drying up, won't it make sense for the Central Asians to move to Iran and India, looking for an easier life? The banks of Sindhu and Ganga provided that. 

It is also a fact that with migration comes conflict between the locals and the migrants. Wouldn't it make sense to believe that the Central Asians as they settled and spread met opposition from those who had been in these plains before them?

Was there a large scale war as in invasion? Probably not. But the settlers couldn't have escaped fighting, just like the Europeans had to face the native tribes when they started expanding into the vast lands in North America.

The stories in Ramayana and Mahabharata probably are not based on historical truth but there has to be some element of truth in the concept of the stories in these books. The scholars will debate for a long time till more archaeologocal remains are discovered.

Dilip

"Roy, Santanu" <sroy at mail.smu.edu> wrote:

Rajib: 
I have no disagreement with you on all of these points. Even the theory of big bang or the Darwinian theory have holes that they cannot explain and are waiting to be supplanted by better theories (the modern theory of genetic evolution is remarkably superior to the originial Darwinian theory). What becomes extremely disturbing is when people attacking the evolutionary theory for reasons of religious conviction camouflage themselves as christian scientists and start floating pseudo-scientific papers & calling themselves experts. Among other things, they hurt the real scientific debate. In a field like history, where matters are much more fluid, you can imagine the trouble with distinguishing genuine research from self proclaimed historians & the even greater problem, of somewhat low quality historians who jump into the bandwagon justto attract notoriety. I am no 
great fan of Marxian history (and historians, in general :-)), but theirs is a valid scientific methodology and if you want to take on someone of the stature of Romila Thapar - you got to put in that kind of serious work. As matters stand, the Aryan invasion theory remains the best theory though it has a lot to explain & until a better theory comes forward that establishes a more comprehensive explanation of stylized facts using valid methodology, it will remain so. This does not mean that we have to accept Aryan invasion theory as truth. No theory is truth. As I said, its just a working hypothesis and right now its the best one we got. People are always trying to pull it down and hoist another one at the front - that is the inherent nature of scientific competition - there are major personal gains if one can do so - & the system provides more or less the right incentives to do so. It hasn't happened yet. 
Santanu-da. 
PS: Though the Aryan invasion theory itself says 
nothing of the direction of migration, the central Asian origin remains the best theory of the origins of the Caucasian tribes - until a better one can displace it. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajib Das [mailto:rajibdas at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sun 10/2/2005 12:02 PM
To: mc mahant; Roy, Santanu
Cc: assam at assamnet.org
Subject: Re: [Assam] Aryan Invasion Theory debunked by DNA evidence to thecontrary ?

Santanuda,

Actually there are significant questions of the Aryan
Invasion theory of significant academic merit. The
Aryan Invasion theory does not explain convincingly
enough certain points. 

The Aryan Invastion theory was propounded by European
historians at a time where their world view was
Eurocentric - and yes they did claim the legacy of the
tribes of the caucasus that spoke Indo European
languages.

Their claim is based on the common origins of the
language but the theory does NOT say 
specifically
anything about the direction of migration.

They cannot for example explain clearly enough why the
Vedas do not mention any other land (not one mention)
other than "India". They cannot explain the existence
of Aryan sources in the Indus valley civilization
relics. 

The theory and its downstream analysis explains Aryans
as fair-skinned and the Dravids as darkskinned who
become the lower classes. But the whole body of the
Vedas do not discriminate at all in terms of skin
color. Gods and goddesses of the vedic times were dark
skinned.

And then with further evidence and analysis coming to
the fore, many historians are coming around to the
view that the Indus Valley civilization died not
because of invasion but because water sources dried
out.

I don't see much in the Aryan Invasion theory that
plausibly explains these gaps. And as you say, any
theory that cannot explain and defend its 
hypothesis
needs to be probed further to see if other theories
answer the questions better.

Marxist historians laugh at the propositions put
forward by the opponents of the Aryan Invasion theory.
In most cases, they attack the individuals. But they
cannot provide a proper explanation on these points. 

When Galileo proposed the earth was round, I am sure a
whole continent load of people must have laughed too.

As you suggest Santanuda, a hypothesis for it to
continue to stand must provide explanations that are
defensible. The current Aryan Invasion theory does not
have all its legs right. Hence the need for a debate
on it. 

---------------------------------

From: "Roy, Santanu" 
To: "Rajib Das" , "Chan Mahanta"
,"Malabika Brahma"
,,

Subject: Re: [Assam] Aryan 
Invasion Theory debunked
by DNA evidence to thecontrary ?
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:51:39 -0500
>No, Rajib. All theories are working hypotheses and
are constructed for possible eventual refutation.
That's how science progresses. The trouble begins when
- like the so called exponents of Intelligent Design
in the US supposed to be challenging Darwinian
evolution - scientific theories are rejected by people
with extremely dubious credentials based on a
political or social agenda and not on the basis of
acceptable scientific methodology.
>And yes, to the best of my knowledge, there is no
serious scientific work that has cast doubts on the
theory of invasion of Indian mainlands by Caucasian
tribes from central Asia.
>Finally, I don't think this theory was developed to
show that Europeans are the credle of civilization.
Think about it logically - the invasion occurs a half
to one millenium much after the Indus Valley & 
early
Egyptian and early Mesopotamian world. Further, if the
Caucasian tribes were the forerunners of european
civilization, then that would still make central Asia
(and not Europe), the cradle.
>Santanu-da.
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rajib Das [mailto:rajibdas at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 10:01 AM
> > To: Roy, Santanu; Chan Mahanta; Malabika Brahma;
> > umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu; assam at assamnet.org
> > Subject: Re: [Assam] Aryan Invasion Theory
debunked by DNA evidence to
> > the contrary ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Leave aside the motivations of the HIndutva guys -
> > What if this is really the truth - or even less,
worth
> > investigating? Should we let go of this theory in
the
> > face of evidence (if there are any) and continue
to
> > teach our children a 
false interpretation of
history -
> > fed by the colonizing Europeans (their version of
how
> > they are the cradle of civilization?). Weren't
they
> > the ones that came out with "A white man's burden"
as
> > the reason for colonizing the world?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- "Roy, Santanu" wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, its even more than that. The so called "open
> > > minded debunkers of Aryan invasion" are also
proud
> > > to uphold the Aryan similarities between some
> > > Indians and the Caucasian Europeans & linguistic
> > > unities - which can therefore only be explained
by
> > > the reverse, namely Aryan invasion of Europe by
> > > Indians. India therefore become the cradle of
> > > Western & eastern civilization. And coming out
of
> > > Africa? - 
chi chi...we are the origin of all
white
> > > men...and only them.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: assam-bounces at assamnet.org on behalf of
Chan
> > > Mahanta
> > > Sent: Fri 9/30/2005 11:24 AM
> > > To: Malabika Brahma;
umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu;
> > > assam at assamnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Assam] Aryan Invasion Theory
debunked
> > > by DNA evidence to the contrary ?
> > >
> > > >How does it matter ?
> > >
> > > *** It matters a lot if one needs to prove that
> > > India is for Hindus,
> > > that it is their god-given homeland and theirs
alone
> > > and where them
> > > semitic invaders do not belong as the converts
to
> > > those semitic
> > > religions do not belong. And if they must 
live
among
> > > the natives,the
> > > Owners of the land, they better do as the
masters of
> > > the land
> > > dictate, or else!
> > >
> > > And so go the rules for them north-easterners.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 2:15 AM +0100 9/30/05, Malabika Brahma wrote:
> > > >How does it matter ? Human kind originated in
the
> > > water holes of
> > > >Africa. We are all African's. It all depends
how
> > > far back in time
> > > >you want to go back.
> > > >
> > > >Utpal
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> 
> > assam at assamnet.org
> > >
> >
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> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > assam at assamnet.org
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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