[Assam] Book on life, ideals of Sankaradeva released(The Assam Tribune, 1...
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Fri Sep 15 09:52:42 EDT 2006
Ram:
At the risk of being accused of beating a dead horse, I have to respond:
*** You have been unable to explain WHY Xonkordev should be Sankaradeva.
*** I don't believe in bad-mouthing those that are dead and gone. If
those 'luminaries' did not know enough Oxomiya or enough English, to
write Xonkordev as Sankaradeva, that was their problem.
But what about TODAY's Oxomiya intelligentsia? Should they act
similarly clueless? And WHY should they make the excuses that since
their predecessors set the standards, however mistakenly, that
today's intelligentsia has no choice but to follow them like sheep?
*** Like Rajen explained very well, Oxomiya language does not need
Xongskrit or Hindi or Bengali approval to stand on its own. Those who
have a need to bow to Xongskrit ( or for that matter any other
language) , do that for only one reason: POLITICAL. Today, it is, at
best, an act of self-imposed servitude.
*** Oxomiyas need to know who they are what they call THEMSELVES,
first. They don't need to go teach or correct outsiders. Bengalis,
Hindiwallas etc. are free to pronounce it or write it the way they
see fit among themselves. But when they come to Assam and call their
hosts strange names, they would do so at their own risk. But only
the profoundly rude and the tone-deaf would choose to do that. Not
even the most outrageous Oxomiya zealot would go to Kolkata and call
a Bengali a Bong. Therefore Dilip's question is irrelevant to this
discourse.
> >and the subject of transliteration can at best be a subset of such
>a >discussion.
*** It is NOT merely a 'subset', but a vital part of contemporary
discourse, because it points to a segment of Oxomiya society's
political agenda of keeping the Oxomiya identity subjugated to a
Sanskrit/Hindi pan-Indian identity, thru a variety of means,
including language. Therefore it must be challenged, debunked and
refuted by all who take pride in their Oxomiya identity, without
apologies to, without having to pay homage to, anybody else
With that I close my participation in this thread.
c-da
At 9:58 AM -0500 9/14/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>C'da,
>
>> WHY is it that Oxomiya names, words and sounds, as spoken by
>>contemporary Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for
>>a >segment of Assam's intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use
>>Sanskritized forms of >those names, words and sounds, before they
>>transliterate them into English?
>
>No, I wasn't avoiding it by any means, but since you are bringing it up..
>
>The reality is this: there are some (intelligentsia) who want to
>desparately get out from under Sanskrit or Hindi. So with that in
>mind, they would put forward the arguments that everything
>transliterated before was wrong, and they are the new
>(intelligentsia) in town. Isn't it mind boggling, as to how, those
>literary types of yester years got it all wrong - we got to set them
>straight? :)
>
>However, this is NOT IMHO, done with a true sense of transliteration
>(from a literary point of view). This is a political battle - of
>identity - which you agreed before. In that case, we should talk
>about identity.
>
>In this quest for identity, we really don't have to put down the
>literary crowd of the past. At least, the intelligentsia of yore did
>transliterations into English with the simple ideas of making
>Assamese more widespread and easier to learn. Maybe they depended on
>Sanskrit or Hindi. They could have been wrong in their dependence on
>Sanskrit. but, I am sure, what they did not do was to push something
>else in the garb of transliteration.
>
>So, what is it C'd? Are all these discussions about Transliterations
>or of Assamese losing their Identity? One would hope if we are
>discussing transliterations, then we are doing just that, and not
>discussing it because we want to highlight something else.
>I am all game in discussing identity, and the subject of
>transliteration can at best be a subset of such a discussion.
>
>--Ram
>
>
>
>On 9/14/06, Chan Mahanta
><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Ram:
>>
>>
>> Dilip might be on the mark to you, but both of you miss the point
>>I was making, which is: WHY is it that Oxomiya names, words and
>>sounds, as spoken by
>> contemporary Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for
>>a segment of Assam's intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use
>>Sanskritized forms of those names, words and sounds, before they
>>transliterate them into English?
>>
>>
>> You could NOT answer that, even though you seem to tacitly support
>>it, or at least have been trying desperately to find some
>>justification for it. Dilip, no doubt experiencing discomfiture,
>>tried to change the subject , and I am sure it came as a welcome
>>relief for you :-).
>>
>>
>> Yes what Dilip raised is an issue, but a DIFFERENT issue. It has
>>nothing to do with what we have been debating/discussing
>>
>>
>> c-da
>>
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>> At 9:37 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>> DD's assumptions are on the mark. If Hindi were to become more
>>influential then logically the target market would be Hindiwallas.
>> Would we then suddenly start trying to find alphabets in Hindi
>>tomorrow with fit the mold (something close to X)?
>>
>> Also, if the intent is to make non-native Assamese interested
>>speaking Assamese the way Assamese want them to, there ought to
>>some sort of guidance, a dictionary with this new way of
>>pronouncing? If there isn't, that I think should be the first step
>>- so that some day that would become the standard for people to use.
>>
>> --Ram
>>
>>
>> On 9/13/06, Dilip/Dil Deka
>><<mailto:dilipdeka at yahoo.com>dilipdeka at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a few
>>more decades and Hindi language keeps the position it has now. :-)
>> How would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get Hindi
>>speakers to pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do
>>it in Bengali?
>> Just my tangential thought since so much has been written about
>>transliteration in English script. Think about it.
>>
>> Like Sarangapani said the average person in Assam does not care
>>how you write "Oxom" in English. That's why it is a non-issue in
>>Assam. Only some of the expatriates are losing sleep over the issue.
>> Dilip
>> ======================================================
>>
>>
>> Chan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ram:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >There is no rationale.
>>
>>
>> *** My point exactly :-).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell
>>and pronounce.
>>
>>
>> *** And here enters the sheep factor: Because someone used it in
>>the past, without any rationale, should thinking and able
>>individuals in the present time who can see better, ought to keep
>>following the same path too? Would be the new rationale? That in
>>my book would be absurd. Won't it for you too?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button issue?
>>
>>
>> *** Because of contemporary issues involving asserting one's
>>ethnic identity and correcting misnomers imposed by outsiders.
>>
>>
>> >How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that matter?
>>
>>
>> *** I don't know. And I don't NEED to know, because it is way too
>>simple a matter for anyone to seek 'expert' validation from. And no
>>one else should need that either.
>>
>>
>> At any event, if I read correctly here in Assam Net at one time,
>>KKH was an advocate of using the 'x' letter for transliteration of
>>our 'xo' sound. Furthermore, times change, and so do customs,
>>including style of writing, spelling, what-have-you. And WE have to
>>do the right things by our times, not someone who has been long
>>gone.
>>
>>
>> c-da
>>
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>> At 4:16 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>> C'da,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the rationale?
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no rationale. Such issues are only relevant for the
>>intelligentsia. For the common folks this is just another nuance.
>>Tell me why a khetiok working in his parched lands would want to
>>apply any logic in this regard?
> >
>>
>>
>>
>> >*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary figures'
>>lead here is the driving factor?
>>
>>
>>
>> One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell and
>>pronounce.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button issue?
>>
>>
>>
>> How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that matter?
>>
>> How would KKH have written 'Oxom' or 'Oxom Xahityo Xobha' or
>>
>> even 'Xonkordeu' when they wrote in English? There were no X's then.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just curious
>>
>>
>>
>> --Ram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta
>><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or
>>Xonkrordeb), but >when they write it in English, they write it
>>differently (Sankaradeva).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** I noticed. Tell me something I don't know :-).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the rationale?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >And they did NOT come up with these spellings in English all by
>>themselves, but >because of the practice of
>>the literary figures and the GOA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** And what is THEIR logic?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >as you suggest, is open to question.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram? What part of my logic is
>>incomprehensible :-)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >'cause thats how it has been probably written by well-known
>>literry figures.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary figures'
>>lead here is the driving factor? And had these "well-known" people
>>used a Bengalified version or a Hindified version of Assamese
>>sounds before transliterating them in English, the sheep would have
>>followed them just the same, and sympathetic Assam Netters would
>>have manufactured convoluted justifications for them just the same ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Call me dense, but that is the part I can't dig Ram. That
>>inability to process ordinary logic, particularly by people who
>>ought to be or could be expected to be :-).
>>
>>
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>>
>> c-da
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>> At 12:59 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>> C'da.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>---why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
>>transliteration.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and knowledgeably (
>>about >the subject matter) ought to go by what is LOGICAL, not
>>necessarily by >what Rajen suggests or I support
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> They have the ability to reason well, but they just consider this
>>as something very important at this point of time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >But if you don't and you are not ashamed of pronouncing
>>it >Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought
>>to >transliterate it the way you pronounce it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or
>>Xonkrordeb), but when they write it in English, they write it
>>differently (Sankaradeva). And they did NOT come up with these
>>spellings in English all by themselves, but because of the practice
>>of the literary figures and the GOA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, whether all this is due to their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
>>
>> as you suggest, is open to question.
>>
>> I think, common folks just haven't given it much thought and are
>>not interested in making this a hot issue.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >*** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 'cause thats how it has been probably written by well-known
>>literry figures. Don't think common folks had some agenda of
>>pushing Sanskrit or English when they write that way.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To you or me, writing that way may be an issue with Assamese
>>identity, but maybe not for others (at least it looks that way)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things
>>and >movements could be traced to a thought of a single individual
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No, it doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such things are, one
>>does need support. On the practical side, anything like this does
>>need support and interest - without which, you will be spitting in
>>the wind.
> >
>>
>>
>>
>> >> There was absolutely NO interest -
>>
>> >*** So?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Same as above
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of
>>what is >right and what is not, has served me very well:-)!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So it has for me. But, I wonder what it does for the "cause" :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --Ram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta
>><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ram:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >---why they should follow your or my path to spellings and transliteration.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and knowledgeably (
>>about the subject matter) ought to go by what is LOGICAL, not
>>necessarily by what Rajen suggests or I support. Rajen's or my role
>>are little--we just help clarify the issues.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Assamese people do not call their icon Sankaradeva, do they? Do
>>you? If you or others do, they ought to stick with that
>>transliteration. But if you don't and you are not ashamed of
>>pronouncing it Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then
>>you ought to transliterate it the way you pronounce it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It certainly is NOT
>>for me. Ought not to be for you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we ought not to.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you
>>recommend that >this public do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Attempt to learn!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all, is it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >You know, some of us actually took out an online petition against
>>this name issue. Want to know the results?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** I know. We have done that on a number of issues with similar
>>results. But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all good
>>things and movements could be traced to a thought of a single
>>individual.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > There was absolutely NO interest -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** So?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were taken for
>>another ride. I am still sore from that rough ride :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell accounts of my
>>rough rides :-)? But still I would not back down from what I
>>believe in to be correct, do I?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of
>>what is right and what is not, has served me very well:-)!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> c-da
>>
>>
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>> At 10:43 AM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>> C'da,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bhuban da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes, you and Barua
>>are probably right about the 'subject mentality' and also how
>>'Assam' got mis-transliterated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Like it or not, OXX has been bestowed the 'literary authority' as
>>it consists of most of the famous literary figures in Assam.
>>
>> Now, you can say -why should we listen to the dictates of OXX or
>>the GOA etc? Well, the question can be turned around and the common
>>man on the street can well ask why they should follow your or my
>>path to spellings and transliteration.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, (even if they are all wrong, and say you, Barua, and some
>>others are right), how would non-literary types like myself (or
>>Monoj - sorry Monoj) propose a drastically different spelling or go
>>against the best literary minds in Assam?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >the ignorant public takes it lying down,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you
>>recommend that this public do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >It is those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow
>>to >superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all, is it? It is
>>more about the Assamese identity. Why not sell that idea straight
>>out of the box, instead of mixing it up with transliteration -
>>after all the common man is ignorant :).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You know, some of us actually took out an online petition against
>>this name issue. Want to know the results?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one way or the other.
>>There was absolutely NO interest - even from those who were
>>touting opposition to the GOA's changing the name to Asom, ga-ga
>>-ing all the way, and egging us to start the petition.
> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were taken for
>>another ride. I am still sore from that rough ride :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --Ram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta
>><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear BK:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I can't see HOW the Oxom Xahityo Xobha could become the sole
>>custodian of the Assamese language or the Assamese identity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It is typical of desi-demokrasy, where elections seem to bestow
>>dictatorial/monarchical powers to bureaucrats and elected reps.,
>>and the ignorant public takes it lying down, while the
>>intelligentsia, similarly clueless remain invisible and silent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** It is NOT just Rajen's pet peeve. It is an issue for all
>>Assamese who care about its 'ostitwo', its claim to an identity all
>>its own, without apologies, without having to bow to ANYONE.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It is those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow to
>>superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for example, could it have
>>been that when the first British colonial masters transliterated
>>the name, were also people who
>>
>> were Xongskrit learners, and could not separate the Assamese from
>>its Sanskrit
>>
>> connections? Thus they chose to Sanskritize an Assamese name, when
>>they transliterated them in English.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Once that happened, the subject people, and even their
>>intellectuals albeit similarly burdened by a subject mentality,
>>could not imagine transliterating Xongkordev. Instead they followed
>>the steps of their colonial masters.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And to this day, some, including for example the AT, cannot
>>imagine breaking from that tradition of colonial servitude, just
>>like many of Assam's intelligentsia.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But why should WE?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best.
>>
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>> c
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>> At 9:56 AM -0400 9/13/06, <mailto:BBaruah at aol.com>BBaruah at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
>> Content-Language: en
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> Dear MKD/Mike et al
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It appears the State Government sought Asam Sahitya Sabha's views
>>on the matter of renaming Assam. It is possible without the benefit
>>of wide discussion and debate the Sahitya Sabha recommended the
>>change to Asom and the State Government accepted it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps even now Asam Sahitya Sabha can take up the matter again.
>>It is not too late as the necessary Constitutional amendments are
>>yet to take place. Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody
>>else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bhuban
>>
>>
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