[Assam] Book on life, ideals of Sankaradeva released(The Assam Tribune, 1...

Fri Sep 15 12:58:39 EDT 2006

C'da,

I thought I would go to some other topic butthought I too should get a
chance to beat this dead horse - one last time.

 >*** You have been unable to explain WHY Xonkordev should be >Sankaradeva.

I am surprised, C'da - you are assuming that "I" think it should be
Sankardeva?
I had prefaced my argument with "devil's advocate' and my feelings on this
are:

Is writing out "Sankaradeva" not appropriate because
(a) We know better now - it should be Xonkordeva
(b) Because it is Sankritized (and we want nothing to do with that)
(c) Its an identity crises

Just wanted to make sure we want it to be Xonkordev because that is how the
Assamese prononce it - thats it - the best reason. Nothing else matters.
Why bring in stuff like identity, Sankritized, Hindi influence, or even the
logical abilities of past literary people?

>*** Like Rajen explained very well, Oxomiya language does not >need
Xongskrit or Hindi or Bengali approval to stand on its own

And did "I" claim it did? Not even hinted at that. Words in my mouth again.

>*** Oxomiyas need to know who they are what they call >THEMSELVES, first

True, and this you want to accomplish by transliterating in English? How big
is that Oxomiya audience that seeks the English language to find out how to
pronounce words in THEIR own language.

Whats wrong with the picture here? Am I missing something, or are you guys
just catering to a select few?
I say, go for it.

>Bengalis, Hindiwallas etc. are free to pronounce it or write it the >way
they see fit among themselves. But when they come to >Assam and call their
hosts strange  names, they would do so at >their own risk.

And when they do come over to Assam, you are going to help these folks to
properly pronounce Assamese words with the help of the English language. I
would love to see the Bihari rickshawalla browsing for this transliteration
in Ingrezi? Good luck again.

:)

--Ram

On 9/15/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>  Ram:
>
>
> At the risk of being accused of beating a dead horse, I have to respond:
>
>
> *** You have been unable to explain WHY Xonkordev should be Sankaradeva.
>
>
> *** I don't believe in bad-mouthing those that are dead and gone. If those
> 'luminaries' did not know enough Oxomiya or enough English, to write
> Xonkordev as Sankaradeva, that was their problem.
>
>
> But what about TODAY's Oxomiya intelligentsia? Should they act similarly
> clueless? And WHY should they make the excuses that since their predecessors
> set the standards, however mistakenly, that today's intelligentsia has no
> choice but to follow them like sheep?
>
>
>
>
> *** Like Rajen explained very well, Oxomiya language does not need
> Xongskrit or Hindi or Bengali approval to stand on its own. Those who have a
> need to bow to Xongskrit ( or for that matter any other language) , do that
> for only one reason: POLITICAL. Today, it is, at best, an act of
> self-imposed servitude.
>
>
> *** Oxomiyas need to know who they are what they call THEMSELVES, first.
> They don't need to go teach or correct outsiders. Bengalis, Hindiwallas etc.
> are free to pronounce it or write it the way they see fit among themselves.
> But when they come to Assam and call their hosts strange  names, they would
> do so at their own risk. But only the profoundly rude and the tone-deaf
> would choose to do that. Not even the most outrageous Oxomiya zealot would
> go to Kolkata and call a Bengali a Bong. Therefore Dilip's question is
> irrelevant to this discourse.
>
>
>
>
>
> >*and the subject of transliteration can at best be a subset of such a
> >discussion.*
>
>
>
>
>  *** It is NOT merely a 'subset', but a vital part of contemporary
> discourse, because it points to a segment of Oxomiya society's political
> agenda of keeping the Oxomiya identity subjugated to a Sanskrit/Hindi
> pan-Indian identity, thru a variety of means, including language. Therefore
> it must be challenged, debunked and refuted by all who take pride in their
> Oxomiya identity, without apologies to, without having to pay homage to,
> anybody else
>
>
>
>
> With that I close my participation in this thread.
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 9:58 AM -0500 9/14/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da,
>
>
> > WHY is it that Oxomiya names, words and sounds, as spoken by
> >contemporary Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for a
> >segment of Assam's intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use Sanskritized
> forms of >those names, words and sounds, before they transliterate them into
> English?
>
>
> No, I wasn't avoiding it by any means, but since you are bringing it up..
>
>
>
> The reality is this: there are some (intelligentsia) who want to*desparately get out from under Sanskrit or Hindi
> *. So with that in mind, they would put forward the arguments that
> everything transliterated before was wrong, and they are the new
> (intelligentsia) in town. Isn't it mind boggling, as to how, those literary
> types of yester years got it all wrong - we got to set them straight? :)
>
>
>
> However, this is* NOT* IMHO, done with a true sense of transliteration
> (from a literary point of view). This is a political battle - of identity -
> which you agreed before. In that case, we should talk about identity.
>
>
>
> In this quest for identity, we really don't have to put down the literary
> crowd of the past. At least, the intelligentsia of yore did transliterations
> into English with the simple ideas of making Assamese more widespread and
> easier to learn. Maybe they depended on Sanskrit or Hindi. They could have
> been wrong in their dependence on Sanskrit. but, I am sure, what* they did
> not do* was to push something else in the* garb of transliteration.*
>
>
>
> So, what is it C'd? Are all these discussions about Transliterations or of
> Assamese losing their Identity? One would hope if we are discussing
> transliterations, then we are doing just that, and not discussing it because
> we want to highlight something else.
>
> *I am all game in discussing identity, and the subject of transliteration
> can at best be a subset of such a discussion.*
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/14/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ram:
> >
> >
> > Dilip might be on the mark to you, but both of you miss the point I was
> making, which is: WHY is it that Oxomiya names, words and sounds, as spoken
> by
> > contemporary Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for a
> segment of Assam's intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use Sanskritized
> forms of those names, words and sounds, before they transliterate them into
> English?
> >
> >
> > You could NOT answer that, even though you seem to tacitly support it,
> or at least have been trying desperately to find some justification for it.
> Dilip, no doubt experiencing discomfiture, tried to change the subject , and
> I am sure it came as a welcome relief for you :-).
> >
> >
> > Yes what Dilip raised is an issue, but a DIFFERENT issue. It has nothing
> to do with what we have been debating/discussing
> >
> >
> > c-da
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 9:37 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> > DD's assumptions are on the mark. If Hindi were to become more
> influential then logically the target market would be Hindiwallas.
> > Would we then suddenly start trying to find alphabets in Hindi tomorrow
> with fit the mold (something close to X)?
> >
> > Also, if the intent is to make non-native Assamese interested speaking
> Assamese the way Assamese want them to, there ought to some sort of
> guidance, a dictionary with this new way of pronouncing? If there isn't,
> that I think should be the first step - so that some day that would become
> the standard for people to use.
> >
> > --Ram
> >
> >
> > On 9/13/06, Dilip/Dil Deka <dilipdeka at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a few more
> decades and Hindi language keeps the position it has now. :-)
> > How would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get Hindi speakers
> to pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do it in Bengali?
> > Just my tangential thought since so much has been written about
> transliteration in English script. Think about it.
> >
> > Like Sarangapani said the average person in Assam does not care how you
> write "Oxom" in English. That's why it is a non-issue in Assam. Only some of
> the expatriates are losing sleep over the issue.
> > Dilip
> > ======================================================
> >
> >
> > Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ram:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >There is no rationale.
> >
> >
> > *** My point exactly :-).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell and
> pronounce.
> >
> >
> > *** And here enters the sheep factor: Because someone used it in the
> past, without any rationale, should thinking and able individuals in the
> present time who can see better, ought to keep following the same path too?
> Would be the new rationale? That in my book would be absurd. Won't it for
> you too?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button issue?
> >
> >
> > *** Because of contemporary issues involving asserting one's ethnic
> identity and correcting misnomers imposed by outsiders.
> >
> >
> > >How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that
> matter?
> >
> >
> > *** I don't know. And I don't NEED to know, because it is way too simple
> a matter for anyone to seek 'expert' validation from. And no one else should
> need that either.
> >
> >
> > At any event, if I read correctly here in Assam Net at one time, KKH was
> an advocate of using the 'x' letter for transliteration of our 'xo' sound.
> Furthermore, times change, and so do customs, including style of writing,
> spelling, what-have-you. And WE have to do the right things by our times,
> not someone who has been long gone.
> >
> >
> > c-da
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 4:16 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> >
> > C'da,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the rationale?
> >
> >
> >
> > There is no rationale. Such issues are only relevant for the
> intelligentsia. For the common folks this is just another nuance. Tell me
> why a khetiok working in his parched lands would want to apply any logic in
> this regard?
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary figures' lead
> here is the driving factor?
> >
> >
> >
> > One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell and
> pronounce.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button issue?
> >
> >
> >
> > How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that
> matter?
> >
> > How would KKH have written 'Oxom' or 'Oxom Xahityo Xobha' or
> >
> > even 'Xonkordeu' when they wrote in English? There were no X's then.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just curious
> >
> >
> >
> > --Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb),
> but >when they write it in English, they write it differently (Sankaradeva).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** I noticed. Tell me something I don't know :-).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the rationale?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >And they did NOT come up with these spellings in English all by
> themselves, but >because of the practice of the literary figures and the
> GOA.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** And what is THEIR logic?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >as you suggest, is open to question.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram? What part of my logic is
> incomprehensible :-)?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >'cause thats how it has been probably written by well-known literry
> figures.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary figures' lead here
> is the driving factor? And had these "well-known" people used a Bengalified
> version or a Hindified version of Assamese sounds before transliterating
> them in English, the sheep would have followed them just the same, and
> sympathetic Assam Netters would have manufactured convoluted justifications
> for them just the same ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Call me dense, but that is the part I can't dig Ram. That inability to
> process ordinary logic, particularly by people who ought to be or could be
> expected to be :-).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > c-da
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:59 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> >
> > C'da.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>---why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
> transliteration.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and knowledgeably ( about
> >the subject matter) ought to go by what is LOGICAL, not necessarily by
> >what Rajen suggests or I support
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > They have the ability to reason well, but they just consider this as
> something very important at this point of time.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >But if you don't and you are not ashamed of pronouncing it >Xonkrordev
> or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought to >transliterate it the
> way you pronounce it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb),
> but when they write it in English, they write it differently (Sankaradeva).
> And they did NOT come up with these spellings in English all by themselves,
> but because of the practice of the literary figures and the GOA.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Now, whether all this is due to their lack of logic or they are just
> 'sheep'
> >
> > as you suggest, is open to question.
> >
> > I think, common folks just haven't given it much thought and are not
> interested in making this a hot issue.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >*** WHY so ?  Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 'cause thats how it has been probably written by well-known literry
> figures. Don't think common folks had some agenda of pushing Sanskrit or
> English when they write that way.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To you or me, writing that way may be an issue with Assamese identity,
> but maybe not for others (at least it looks that way)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things and
> >movements could be traced to a thought of a single individual
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No, it doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such things are, one does
> need support. On the practical side, anything like this does need support
> and interest - without which, you will be spitting in the wind.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> There was absolutely NO interest  -
> >
> > >*** So?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Same as above
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of what
> is >right and what is not, has served me very well:-)!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So it has for me. But, I wonder what it does for the "cause" :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ram:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >---why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
> transliteration.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and knowledgeably ( about
> the subject matter) ought to go by what is LOGICAL, not necessarily by what
> Rajen suggests or I support. Rajen's or my role are little--we just help
> clarify the issues.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Assamese people do not call their icon Sankaradeva, do they? Do you? If
> you or others do, they ought to stick with that transliteration. But if you
> don't and you are not ashamed of pronouncing it Xonkrordev or as in Upper
> Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought to transliterate it the way you pronounce
> it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It certainly is NOT for
> me. Ought not to be for you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we ought not to.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you recommend
> that >this public do?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Attempt to learn!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all, is it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** WHY so ?  Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >You know, some of us actually took out an online petition against this
> name issue. Want to know the results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** I know. We have done that on a number of issues with similar
> results. But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things
> and movements could be traced to a thought of a single individual.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > There was absolutely NO interest  -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** So?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were taken for another
> ride. I am still sore from that rough ride :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell accounts of  my rough
> rides  :-)? But still I would not back down from what I believe in to be
> correct, do I?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of what
> is right and what is not, has served me very well:-)!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > c-da
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 10:43 AM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> >
> > C'da,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bhuban da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes, you and Barua are
> probably right about the 'subject mentality' and also how 'Assam' got
> mis-transliterated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Like it or not, OXX has been bestowed the 'literary authority' as it
> consists of most of the famous literary figures in Assam.
> >
> > Now, you can say -why should we listen to the dictates of OXX or the GOA
> etc? Well, the question can be turned around and the common man on the
> street can well ask why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
> transliteration.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Now, (even if they are all wrong, and say you, Barua, and some others
> are right), how would non-literary types like myself (or Monoj - sorry
> Monoj) propose a drastically different spelling or go against the best
> literary minds in Assam?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >the ignorant public takes it lying down,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you recommend
> that this public do?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >It is those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow to >superior
> language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all, is it? It is more
> about the Assamese identity. Why not sell that idea straight out of the box,
> instead of mixing it up with transliteration - after all the common man is
> ignorant :).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You know, some of us actually took out an online petition against this
> name issue. Want to know the results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one way or the other. There
> was absolutely NO interest  - even from those who were touting opposition to
> the GOA's changing the name to Asom, ga-ga -ing all the way, and egging us
> to start the petition.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were taken for another
> ride. I am still sore from that rough ride :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > Dear BK:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I can't see HOW the Oxom Xahityo Xobha could become the sole custodian
> of the Assamese language or the Assamese identity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It is typical of desi-demokrasy, where elections seem to bestow
> dictatorial/monarchical powers to bureaucrats and elected reps., and the
> ignorant public takes it lying down, while the intelligentsia, similarly
> clueless remain invisible and silent.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody else.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** It is NOT just Rajen's pet peeve. It is an issue for all Assamese
> who care about its 'ostitwo', its claim to an identity all its own, without
> apologies, without having to bow to ANYONE.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It is those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow to superior
> language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for example, could it have been
> that when the first British colonial masters transliterated the name, were
> also people who
> >
> > were Xongskrit learners, and could not separate the Assamese  from its
> Sanskrit
> >
> > connections? Thus they chose to Sanskritize an Assamese name, when they
> transliterated them in English.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Once that happened, the subject people, and even their intellectuals
> albeit similarly burdened by a subject mentality, could not imagine
> transliterating Xongkordev. Instead they followed the steps of their
> colonial masters.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > And to this day, some, including for example the AT, cannot imagine
> breaking from that tradition of colonial servitude, just like many of
> Assam's intelligentsia.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > But why should WE?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Best.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > c
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 9:56 AM -0400 9/13/06, BBaruah at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Language: en
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear MKD/Mike et al
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It appears the State Government sought Asam Sahitya Sabha's views on the
> matter of renaming Assam. It is possible without the benefit of wide
> discussion and debate the Sahitya Sabha recommended the change to Asom and
> the State Government accepted it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps even now Asam Sahitya Sabha can take up the matter again. It is
> not too late as the necessary Constitutional amendments are yet to take
> place. Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody else.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bhuban
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > assam mailing list
> > assam at assamnet.org
> > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > assam mailing list
> > assam at assamnet.org
> > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > assam mailing list
> > assam at assamnet.org
> > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/assam_assamnet.org/attachments/20060915/ad397216/attachment.htm 