[Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Fri Jun 1 14:06:53 EDT 2007
>At 10:24 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>C-da,
>
>Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there already
>exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions in India
>-- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already privileaged be
>included in this quota --which is not justified.
>
>Umesh
**** So WORK THAT out with the aggrieved parties. That is WHAT the
legislators are sent to govern. If they can't, let them say so, so
that a competent slate could be returned.
But to stonewall it or ignore it is bound to result in a bigger problem.
At 10:24 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>C-da,
>
>Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there already
>exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions in India
>-- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already privileaged be
>included in this quota --which is not justified.
>
>Umesh
>
>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>U:
>
>
>
> >In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly opposition parties)
>who start such mass protests - and >demand for reservation -- thats
>what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections when
>the >high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for themselves
>- to suppport any party in elections- >nd got it --under current BJP
>rule.
>
>
>*** And since it was started by politicians it is NOT legitimate?
>
>That is HOW democracy works Umesh. People look to their
>representatives, elected or even unelected . Usually they are
>politicians. But BEFORE they instigate their flocks to take to the
>streets usually there are signs of a trouble brewing. It does not
>come like hurricane Katrina in a week's notice. A DEMOCRATIC
>government would usually respond to a mass disaffection brewing.
>
>
>They would NOT stonewall, or pretend they hear or see anything. And
>if they do, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, which is an alien word
>in desi-demokrasy.
>
>So they would make unreasonable demands, won't they?
>
>ALL demands are UNREASONABLE when there is no desire or intent to
>give anything up. But that is not how democracy works. If it is
>patently unreasonable, or unconstitutional, they should be
>adjudicated in a RELIABLE ( one that cannot be bought by the powers
>in control or the highest briber) court of law. Otherwise there will
>have to be a GIVE and TAKE.
>
>c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>At 8:21 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>
>>C-da,
>>
>
>
>How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of
>mostly opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and demand
>for reservation -- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last
>state elections when the high-caste powerful groups demanded
>reservation for themselves - to suppport any party in elections- and
>got it --under current BJP rule.
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>Ram:
>
>
>All that is fine.
>
>
>Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But
>it does not somehow make it
>
>out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process , with
>adequate governmental response to the issues, when they begin to
>surface. That would prevent it from degenerating into violent
>protests, like it has in Rajasthan, like it did in Assam nearly
>thirty years ago. Other examples are well detailed in Mohan
>Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice! forwarded by mcm
>this morning.
>
>
>The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic
>pretensions, is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and
>entrenched interests, who REFUSE to address these conflicts when
>they begin to appear, let them fester, and when violence erupts,
>sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts, long
>dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
>incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of
>conflict resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does not
>even think of it as a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at their
>disposal: A fact demonstrated in this forum routinely by some of the
>country's most educated and informed, including High-court
>advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for decades.
>
>
>Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of the
>attitude of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an absence
>of functioning conflict resolution institutions in what is
>advertised as a democracy, does NOT FLY. And to suggest that these
>conflicts can turn violent leading to military or police firings and
>killing of their own people by the dozens at a time, routinely,
>BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are doing
>a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such bizarre
>stories about what a democracy is :-).
>
>
>
>c-da
>
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>At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
>>C'da
>>
>
>
>
> >*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
>egregious spin on India's behavior
>
>
> >I have heard so far Ram.
>
>
>
>
>I am trying to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are
>clashing in Rajasthan - basically one group does not want the other
>to get ST status (while they, themselves should). Without going into
>the details who should and who shouldn't, the basic underpinning of
>this whole this is Economics.
>
>
>
>
>Neither the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of
>their Scheduled Tribe Status if there were jobs and other resources
>aplenty. After all - the 6th Schedule is only in the Constitution -
>and whether it is or isn't the Gujars and the Meenas will remain
>whatever they have been - Tribes or non-Tribes. So, why the big
>rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and oppturnities.
>
>
>
>
>A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be
>traced to economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are separate
>cultural identity" argument per se. I would even go a bit further -
>sometimes even "demands" for the preservation cultural identities
>ties back to economics. Hence, such cultural identities prove to be
>a boon - hence, Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in this case Gujars or
>Meenas form numbers to jostle for better economic benefits. The
>other thing to fact is political power - ie. politicians play one
>group against the other for such power.
>
>
>
>
>--Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta
><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> >The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India
>because its a democracy and they happen >because there is NOT enough
>to go around. It does not happen in the US because most of the
>most >common things have already been met.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
>egregious spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
>
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>At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
>>Oh! I forgot, C'da
>>
>
>
>
>LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am
>forgetting a few.
>
>
>
>
>But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or
>most of the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed,
>in general, to the limited resources, and too many people these
>countries have.
>
>
>
>
>If some of the countries have democracies, there are demonstrations,
>protests etc - which often go haywire. If they are NOT democratic
>then they can be quelled swiftly.
>
>
>
>
>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because
>its a democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go
>around. It does not happen in the US because most of the most
>common things have already been met.
>
>
>
>
>--Ram
>
>
>
>On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta
><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> >In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
>>expand on, I am sure).
>>
>
>
>
>
>*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> >Elian Gonzalez
>
>
>
>
>** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed if
>I am not mistaken.
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> >Ruby Ridge
>
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>*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>
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> >David Koresh
>
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>
>
>*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a
>court order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which the
>inmates of the commune committed mass suicide.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections
>, ignored by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned into
>rioting terminated by military /police firing against their OWN
>PEOPLE.
>
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>At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
>>Just to butt in here a bit.
>>
>
>
>
>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
>expand on, I am sure).
>
>
>
>
>Elian Gonzalez
>
>Ruby Ridge
>
>David Koresh
>
>
>
>
>In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces -
>people got killed
>
>
>
>On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A
>- say like if some African Americans were to protest again over
>Hurricane Katrina? Maybe we should learn and implement similar
>policies here.
>
>
>
>
>
>Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's
>political settlement?
>
>
>
>
>Rgds,
>
>Sandip
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: umesh sharma <<mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com> jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
>To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com>; Chan
>Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net> cmahanta at charter.net>;
><mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
>
>it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in
>comparison to the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category -- nobody
>oppresses them - but they are maig this demand after upper caste
>have got 10% reservation in Rajasthan and Jats -another dominant
>warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana) has been included in OBC
>category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
>
>Umesh
>
>SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Think deeper" - he he!
>
>
>
>
>How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in
>Rajasthan? - before you read the BBC report?
>
>
>
>
>And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
>
>
>
>
>
>BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
>
>
>
>
>Rgds,
>
>Sandip
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Chan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net> cmahanta at charter.net>
>To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com>;
>Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>
>cmahanta at charter.net>; <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>
>Sandip:
>
>
>
>
>You need to to think a little DEEPER!
>
>
>
>
>WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people
>wake up one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let
>us go burn some buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
>
>
>
>
>
>Think about it and come back with your questions again.
>
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>sd
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>At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
>
>>Hello Sondon Da,
>>
>
>
>
>As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law &
>order and prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job. Army
>is called in only when situation gets out of control. Same approach
>is applied everywhere. Local Admin calls in the army. In this case,
>Rajasthan police had no experience handling anything of this kind in
>the last many decades.
>
>
>
>
>May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence
>as a form of protest and then try justifying it - in the
>worlds greatest demokrasy - your home, the United EStates of Amrika?
>I mean people who damage govt. property, possibly kill and maim
>others and try to undermine state authority?
>
>
>
>
>
>Rgds,
>
>SD
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net >
>To: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
>Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>
>Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
>should see it.
>
>** Message **
>This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program,
>which has not changed in sixty years after freedom.
>
>** Army deployed after India riots **
>Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are
>killed in clashes over government job quotas.
><
><http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
>
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>Umesh Sharma
>
>Washington D.C.
>
>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>
>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>Harvard University,
>Class of 2005
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>Umesh Sharma
>
>Washington D.C.
>
>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>
>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>Harvard University,
>Class of 2005
>
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>Umesh Sharma
>
>Washington D.C.
>
>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>
>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>Harvard University,
>Class of 2005
>
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