[Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Fri Jun 1 22:17:29 EDT 2007
> However the Gujjars had no business erupting like that with the
>express >intention of damaging crores of govt. property.
*** And of course that is the unimpeachable truth, because Sandip
says so, right? And thus them Gujjars DESERVE what they got.
And YOU speak of DEMOCRACY Sandip?
You guys ought to be ashamed of yoirselves.
At 4:49 PM -0700 6/1/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
>Very true Sondon Da - it needs to be worked out with the parties. As
>you will see with most quotas, the creamy layer corner all the
>priveleges. Hence the need for economic reservation.
>
>However the Gujjars had no business erupting like that with the
>express intention of damaging crores of govt. property. Hence the
>results were predictable.
>
>Rgds,
>SD
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>
>To: umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu; Ram Sarangapani
><assamrs at gmail.com>; Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>
>Cc: assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 4:06:53 AM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>
> >At 10:24 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>
>>C-da,
>>
>>
>>
>>Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there
>>already exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions
>>in India -- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already
>>privileaged be included in this quota --which is not justified.
>>
>>
>>
>>Umesh
>>
>
>
>
>**** So WORK THAT out with the aggrieved parties. That is WHAT the
>legislators are sent to govern. If they can't, let them say so, so
>that a competent slate could be returned.
>
>
>But to stonewall it or ignore it is bound to result in a bigger problem.
>
>
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>
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>
>At 10:24 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>
>>C-da,
>>
>>
>>
>>Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there
>>already exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions
>>in India -- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already
>>privileaged be included in this quota --which is not justified.
>>
>>
>>
>>Umesh
>>
>>
>>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>U:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly opposition
>>parties) who start such mass protests - and >demand for reservation
>>-- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections
>>when the >high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for
>>themselves - to suppport any party in elections- >nd got it --under
>>current BJP rule.
>>
>>
>>
>>*** And since it was started by politicians it is NOT legitimate?
>>
>>
>>That is HOW democracy works Umesh. People look to their
>>representatives, elected or even unelected . Usually they are
>>politicians. But BEFORE they instigate their flocks to take to the
>>streets usually there are signs of a trouble brewing. It does not
>>come like hurricane Katrina in a week's notice. A DEMOCRATIC
>>government would usually respond to a mass disaffection brewing.
>>
>>
>>
>>They would NOT stonewall, or pretend they hear or see anything.
>>And if they do, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, which is an alien
>>word in desi-demokrasy.
>>
>>
>>So they would make unreasonable demands, won't they?
>>
>>
>>ALL demands are UNREASONABLE when there is no desire or intent to
>>give anything up. But that is not how democracy works. If it is
>>patently unreasonable, or unconstitutional, they should be
>>adjudicated in a RELIABLE ( one that cannot be bought by the powers
>>in control or the highest briber) court of law. Otherwise there
>>will have to be a GIVE and TAKE.
>>
>>
>>c-da
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 8:21 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>>
>>>C-da,
>>>
>>
>>
>>How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of
>>mostly opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and
>>demand for reservation -- thats what happened in Rajasthan before
>>the last state elections when the high-caste powerful groups
>>demanded reservation for themselves - to suppport any party in
>>elections- and got it --under current BJP rule.
>>
>>
>>
>>Umesh
>>
>>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>Ram:
>>
>>
>>All that is fine.
>>
>>
>>Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But
>>it does not somehow make it
>>
>>out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process , with
>>adequate governmental response to the issues, when they begin to
>>surface. That would prevent it from degenerating into violent
>>protests, like it has in Rajasthan, like it did in Assam nearly
>>thirty years ago. Other examples are well detailed in Mohan
>>Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice! forwarded by mcm
>>this morning.
>>
>>
>>The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic
>>pretensions, is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and
>>entrenched interests, who REFUSE to address these conflicts when
>>they begin to appear, let them fester, and when violence erupts,
>>sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts, long
>>dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
>>incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of
>>conflict resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does
>>not even think of it as a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at
>>their disposal: A fact demonstrated in this forum routinely by some
>>of the country's most educated and informed, including High-court
>>advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for decades.
>>
>>
>>
>>Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of
>>the attitude of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an
>>absence of functioning conflict resolution institutions in what is
>>advertised as a democracy, does NOT FLY. And to suggest that these
>>conflicts can turn violent leading to military or police firings
>>and killing of their own people by the dozens at a time, routinely,
>>BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are
>>doing a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such
>>bizarre stories about what a democracy is :-).
>>
>>
>>
>>c-da
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>>>C'da
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy
>>and egregious spin on India's behavior
>>
>>
>> >I have heard so far Ram.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I am trying to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are
>>clashing in Rajasthan - basically one group does not want the other
>>to get ST status (while they, themselves should). Without going
>>into the details who should and who shouldn't, the basic
>>underpinning of this whole this is Economics.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Neither the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of
>>their Scheduled Tribe Status if there were jobs and other resources
>>aplenty. After all - the 6th Schedule is only in the Constitution -
>>and whether it is or isn't the Gujars and the Meenas will remain
>>whatever they have been - Tribes or non-Tribes. So, why the big
>>rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and oppturnities.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be
>>traced to economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are
>>separate cultural identity" argument per se. I would even go a bit
>>further - sometimes even "demands" for the preservation cultural
>>identities ties back to economics. Hence, such cultural identities
>>prove to be a boon - hence, Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in this case
>>Gujars or Meenas form numbers to jostle for better economic
>>benefits. The other thing to fact is political power - ie.
>>politicians play one group against the other for such power.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--Ram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta
>><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India
>>because its a democracy and they happen >because there is NOT
>>enough to go around. It does not happen in the US because most of
>>the most >common things have already been met.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
>>egregious spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
>>
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>>At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>>>Oh! I forgot, C'da
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am
>>forgetting a few.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or
>>most of the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed,
>>in general, to the limited resources, and too many people these
>>countries have.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>If some of the countries have democracies, there are
>>demonstrations, protests etc - which often go haywire. If they are
>>NOT democratic then they can be quelled swiftly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because
>>its a democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go
>>around. It does not happen in the US because most of the most
>>common things have already been met.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--Ram
>>
>>
>>
>>On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta
>><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>> >In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
>>>expand on, I am sure).
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Elian Gonzalez
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed
>>if I am not mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Ruby Ridge
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >David Koresh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a
>>court order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which
>>the inmates of the commune committed mass suicide.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections
>>, ignored by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned
>>into rioting terminated by military /police firing against their
>>OWN PEOPLE.
>>
>>
>>
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>>At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>>>Just to butt in here a bit.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
>>expand on, I am sure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Elian Gonzalez
>>
>>Ruby Ridge
>>
>>David Koresh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces -
>>people got killed
>>
>>
>>
>>On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A
>>- say like if some African Americans were to protest again over
>>Hurricane Katrina? Maybe we should learn and implement similar
>>policies here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's
>>political settlement?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Rgds,
>>
>>Sandip
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: umesh sharma <<mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com> jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
>>To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com>; Chan
>>Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net> cmahanta at charter.net>;
>><mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>>
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
>>
>>it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in
>>comparison to the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category --
>>nobody oppresses them - but they are maig this demand after upper
>>caste have got 10% reservation in Rajasthan and Jats -another
>>dominant warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana) has been included
>>in OBC category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
>>
>>Umesh
>>
>>SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Think deeper" - he he!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in
>>Rajasthan? - before you read the BBC report?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Rgds,
>>
>>Sandip
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Chan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net> cmahanta at charter.net>
>>To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:pseude at yahoo.com>pseude at yahoo.com>;
>>Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>
>>cmahanta at charter.net>; <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>>
>>Sandip:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>You need to to think a little DEEPER!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people
>>wake up one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let
>>us go burn some buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Think about it and come back with your questions again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>sd
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>>At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
>>
>>>Hello Sondon Da,
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law &
>>order and prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job.
>>Army is called in only when situation gets out of control. Same
>>approach is applied everywhere. Local Admin calls in the army. In
>>this case, Rajasthan police had no experience handling anything of
>>this kind in the last many decades.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence
>>as a form of protest and then try justifying it - in the
>>worlds greatest demokrasy - your home, the United EStates of
>>Amrika? I mean people who damage govt. property, possibly kill and
>>maim others and try to undermine state authority?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Rgds,
>>
>>SD
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net >
>>To: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
>>Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
>>
>>Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
>>should see it.
>>
>>** Message **
>>This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program,
>>which has not changed in sixty years after freedom.
>>
>>** Army deployed after India riots **
>>Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are
>>killed in clashes over government job quotas.
>><
>><http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
>>
>>
>>
>>** BBC Daily E-mail **
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>>Umesh Sharma
>>
>>Washington D.C.
>>
>>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>>
>>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>>Harvard University,
>>Class of 2005
>>
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>>Umesh Sharma
>>
>>Washington D.C.
>>
>>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>>
>>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>>Harvard University,
>>Class of 2005
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>>http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
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>>http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
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>>
>>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>>Harvard University,
>>Class of 2005
>>
>>http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
>>
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