[Assam] article from outlookindia.com
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Sun Jun 24 10:35:00 EDT 2007
As they say in US courts, I rest my case.
At 7:31 AM -0700 6/24/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>C-da,
>
>Hah hah - either you do not understand or your logic has lfailed you
>completely. Just becos one road was not constructed well does not
>mean that the entire civil engineering department of all Indian
>colleges are bad (that was your example about the engineers in that
>particular case not taking proper checks - like gradients). The same
>way as in case of New Orleans leeways failing becos engineers there
>did not take proper precautions.
>
>Who built the Taj Mahal?
>Was that Indian skill? Who built the Red Fort and the 1000 year old
>forts and palaces across the country. Who built the 500 year old
>Grand Trunk Road - which goes 3,000 miles from current Pakistan to
>Kolkata?
>
>Umesh
>
>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>Umesh:
>
>Your associative and inferential skills either must be
>extraordinary, or perhaps require a great deal of maturing. I am not
>sure which, considering that you are a Harvard M.Ed. With the
>arguments you put up, either you make Harvard appear to be a third
>rate institution that churn out degree collectors lacking even the
>minimum of deliberative skills, or that perhaps you stand out as
>those exceptions to the rule.
>I am not sure which is worse under the circumstances.
>
>c-da
>
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>At 10:15 PM -0700 6/23/07, umesh sharma wrote:
>
>>C-da,
>>
>
>
>I don't have to be a civil engineer to get a road constructed. Under
>my father's guidance I have got large pieces of road and drainage
>system constructed for Jaipur School. Ofcourse, it was my father's
>attention to detail wchich identified most of the faults - which
>even qualified architects overlooked - quite the contrary - the
>architect relied on our feedback to make relevant changes in the
>map. And he is a good architect - by Indian standards.
>
>
>
>I'm sure you can be a great businessman without an MBA from a
>renowned business school - if you have attention to detail and are
>eager to learn and experiment. As the saying goes: If you have
>confidence and ignorance then success is sure (from Reader's Digest
>of long ago).
>
>How about Levees in New Orleans - which failed despite USA's
>excellent education system?
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>Ram:
>
>
>
>
>
>At 8:13 PM -0600 6/22/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
>>C'da,
>>
>
>
>
>Thanks for forwarding this rather well-written article. I must say,
>it makes wonderful reading and does make one have second
>thoughts about the quality of education that most of us have
>received from India. :)
>
>
>
>
>**** Before you get into raptures on that, allow me to caution you
>on a very important point: NOT ALL who might have come out of that
>dysfunctional Indian education system are burdened by its
>uselessness. Some had the good fortune of learning better, in spite
>of it. Dunu Roy is a good example.
>
>
>
> > have no argument with the first point - I do think it is highly
>possible to teach people to perform and >operate complex procedures,
>if they are willing to learn and taught well.
>
>
>*** I am glad.
>
>
>The IF in "If if they are willing to learn and taught well " has a
>lot to do with RELEVANCE ,PREPARATION and the qualifications to
>TEACH. You couldn't teach the fundamentals of land measurement or
>establish gradient to determine drainage patterns if you did not
>learn how to do basic arithmetic or the fundamentals of geometry.
>And none of that could be taught by Srimati Priyanka Saikia ,
>graduate of the dysfunctional university of where -have-you, who got
>the job by bribing the Babus that lead the non-education system.
>
>
>
>Let me give you an even more stark example:
>
>
>You, I am sure, heard of that so-called major drainage improvement
>project that was undertaken by Guwahati or Assam ( doesn't matter
>exactly who) which had to be ABANDONED a few years back after
>crores of rupees having been spent on it. I remember writing a
>letter to one of those fearless watchdogs of democracy at Guwahati
>asking WHY they don't say or attempt to find out and inform the
>public WHY it had to be ABANDONED? Needless to say, it was not
>published. Much later I heard that the system had to be abandoned
>because the ENGINEERS were not aware that the system did not have
>the gradient to drain.
>
>
>Obviously these highly trained engineers, who would have done just
>as well as you or I, had they been
>
>here in the USA for example, did not know how to survey the terrain.
>
>
>
>I will give you another example, of a different kind:
>
>
>Several years back I gave a short talk at my alma mater, Namti
>Higher Secondary School, about how to enrich USEFUL science studies
>at schools with EXPERIMENTAL, hands-on techniques, by teaching how
>to hypothesize, how to experiment with changing the variables, by
>observing the results, by recording them , by graphing them and
>learning from them. For giving a relevant example, I spoke about Wl
>Kobi ( Kohlrabi) outputs in a small kitchen garden that everybody is
>familiar with and involve in rural Assam.
>
>
>The constant would be how it is usually done.
>
>
>The variables would be like:
>
>
> Use of mulch ( old newspapers) to control, weeds, a major
>cause of nutrient depletion
>
> and productivity loss.
>
>
> Frequency of watering, a major concern in the dry season when
>they are grown.
>
>
> Type of fertilizers, like raw dung versus composted cow
>manure with organic waste.
>
>
> Density of planting ( they grow them very inefficiently with
>one plant per two or three
>
> square feet of space).
>
>
> So on and so forth.
>
>
>
>The teachers were very excited. They connected with the concept
>instantly and wanted to do it. I wished I could stay to set an
>experiment up. But I go to Namti for one or two days at a time.
>Never could help out other than send them a bunch of literature.
>Don't know if it went anywhere.
>
>
>How did *I* learn of it? By being involved with our children's
>science projects at school.
>
>
>
>
> >The notion that education in India is totally impractical I find
>it had to believe. You, me, and most NRIs >have had this didactic
>education (including Roy). I really wonder, how, Roy & his group of
>intellectuals >managed to get out of that mold?
>
>
>*** You should ask ME that question. I will tell you someday :-).
>
>
>
>
> >Most Indians too have this background too. Then, how is it that
>they manage to do very well in this >country?
>
>
>
>*** That is a FALSE yardstick to measure it with. See if you can
>figure that out yourself Ram. I like to think you are eminently able
>to. But if you fail, honestly, let me know. I promise to help :-).
>
>
>
> >On the third point, it is quite easy to take pot shots at the
>Govt. machinery. and its incompetence. While >I commend Roy and his
>group (are they some anti-dam people:) in taking the trouble to do a
>better job >teaching than the education system, I wonder, if Roy can
>recommend that method for the whole >country, and if that will be
>workable.
>
>
>
>*** It is NOT a mystery. Many know how to change it. But India's
>dysfunctional state is unable to change.
>
>That is where the problem is.
>
>
>
>I wonder where your naive beliefs about Indian governance spring
>from: Knowledge or ignorance :-).
>
>
>
>c-da
>
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>
>> Even with that didactic//memorizing by rote background, I came
>>away with a few of things here: :)
>>
>
>
>
>The first, of course, is that people can be taught (often complex
>things) even if they have had no formal education.
>
>
>
>
>The second, of course, is that, I find it a tad preposterous, that
>Dunu Roy thinks that education in India as "Instead, we have
>didactic instruction, memorising by rote, and vomiting out useless
>information for futile examinations... "
>
>
>
>
>The third, of course, is that according to Dunu Roy, the Govt. is
>pretty useless, ie. whatever they touched (his illustrations here)
>have been baseless, miscalculated, and ultimately, Roy and his
>group, had to go teach the "practical/down-to-earth" stuff to the
>affected people, and make the corrections.
>
>
>
>
>I have no argument with the first point - I do think it is highly
>possible to teach people to perform and operate complex procedures,
>if they are willing to learn and taught well.
>
>
>
>
>The notion that education in India is totally impractical I find it
>had to believe. You, me, and most NRIs have had this didactic
>education (including Roy). I really wonder, how, Roy & his group of
>intellectuals managed to get out of that mold?
>
>
>
>
>Most Indians too have this background too. Then, how is it that they
>manage to do very well in this country? How is it that they have not
>only done well in school in this country, but have proved to be one
>of the smartest in opening up successful start-ups (not just IT),
>and doing great.
>
>I don't know. Probably Roy will tell us.
>
>
>
>
>On the third point, it is quite easy to take pot shots at the Govt.
>machinery. and its incompetence. While I commend Roy and his group
>(are they some anti-dam people:) in taking the trouble to do a
>better job teaching than the education system, I wonder, if Roy can
>recommend that method for the whole country, and if that will be
>workable.
>
>
>
>
>--Ram
>
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>
>On 6/22/07, <mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net
><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>Knowledge As Weapon
>
>Ordinary working people have the capacity to learn, to collect
>information, to look at it analytically, and eventually use it for
>bettering their own lives. This is, or should be, the central
>objective of "education". Instead, we have didactic instruction,
>memorising by rote, and vomiting out useless information for futile
>examinations...
>Dunu Roy
>
>It was some 30 years ago, in the mid-70s, that we got a glimpse of
>what the future might hold. We had just purchased 2 acres of land to
>build a workshop on, in the district of Shahdol in Madhya Pradesh.
>There had been some argument with the neighbouring owner about where
>exactly the boundary lay. So one day we dragged out the iron chain
>that surveyors use, and began measuring the land ourselves. A
>curious shepherd boy must have witnessed the proceedings, because
>next day a delegation of solemn farmers from the nearby village paid
>us a visit. They had heard that we were engineers, they explained,
>so could we teach them how to measure land? Why, we asked, whatever
>will you do with it? Well, they explained, the patwari (the
>government revenue functionary at the village) had been demarcating
>their lands and they were never sure whether he was doing it right.
>So we spent the next four hours demonstrating how the chain worked
>and how to calculate the area. In the process, of course, we began
>to learn that the chain was called a jareeb, the area was rakba, the
>khasra number referred to the record in the revenue department,
>their title was the patta, and the patwari presided over a khatauni
>in which all secrets were well documented.
>
>
>A week later, the same delegation was back, but looking less solemn
>and more brashly conspiratorial. Could they borrow our jareeb? We
>handed over the chain and then, not a little puzzled ourselves, we
>followed them at a discreet distance. In due course, we arrived at
>the village and a curious spectacle greeted us. On the farms of the
>village, the patwari was laying out his chain, and wherever he went,
>the farmers followed with their borrowed jareeb and laid it out in
>exactly the same manner. At every halt they would watch the patwari
>and when he began to enter figures in his notebook, they too would
>whip out a pencil and scribble on a piece of paper. Rarely had we
>seen a more harassed looking patwari! At the end of the day, the
>delegation was back again, beaming from ear to ear. Thank you for
>the hathiyaar (weapon), they told us, and handed back the jareeb.
>Can we, we asked them, see what you wrote? They took out their
>smudged piece of paper and showed it to us. It was covered with a
>series of numbers in meaningless disorder. But, they grinned, they
>had taken care not to show it to the patwari!
>
>This theme of knowledge as weapon has come back to us many times in
>the last three decades. In the mid-80s, a small party from the
>Palamau district of Bihar knocked on our door. Could we come to
>their village and see what the proposed dam on the Auranga river was
>going to do to their area? We said yes, but provided they were able
>to wrangle a copy of the DPR (Detailed Project Report) of the dam.
>Oh, no problem, they remarked, the irrigation department chaprasi
>(peon) was from their village. So, three weeks later, we were
>rambling across the farmlands of Palamau inspecting the river and
>its catchment and comparing it to what was written in the DPR. We
>were faced with a battery of questions. Look at that river,
>exclaimed the villagers, do you think it can carry as much water as
>to irrigate all the lands the department is claiming it will? And
>can you see the silt in it; how long will it take for the dam to
>fill up? The department says that this village will come under
>submergence, and that one will not, when we can clearly see that
>this village is higher than that one! How can we challenge their
>views?
>
>We took four days to instruct a batch of 20 young boys from the
>surrounding villages how to measure the flow in the river, the silt
>load that it carried, and the slope of the land.With that, they
>said, they would be able to take on the project's claims of
>projected irrigation, the life of the dam, and the extent of
>submergence. On the last evening, as we were packing to leave the
>next morning, they eyed us suspiciously. Where, they asked, pointing
>to the "dumpy" (a kind of telescopic instrument that is used to
>measure levels), are you taking that? Well, we said, this is our
>instrument and we are taking it back; if you want one you will have
>to get it for yourselves. How much does it cost, they queried, and
>where is it available? The nearest place, we explained, would be
>Ranchi and it would cost about Rs 3000. And then we retired for the
>night. Only to be woken up by an exuberant hammering on the door
>very early the next morning. Here, they said, is Rs 3000 collected
>from donations by all the villagers, and you can go and buy the
>dumpy yourself; otherwise how will we fight a yuddh (war) without an
>astra (weapon)?
>
>
>That the yuddh was joined became clear to us when, four months
>later, a parcel arrived with the postman. It contained a sheaf of
>papers containing the records of three months of daily measurement.
>We went to work on the data and came up with some very interesting
>findings indeed. The river, for instance, carried only half as much
>water in the monsoon months as the DPR claimed it did. This water
>also bore a silt load one-and-a-half times that of the figure
>reported in the project proposal. 25 villages were actually coming
>into the submergence zone, demarcated by following the full
>reservoir contour, as compared to the 19 acknowledged by the project
>authorities. When all these were factored into the calculations the
>benefits actually came to less than the costs! This was going to be
>one very unviable dam indeed, we informed the people of Auranga.
>They, in turn, took the report and propagated it all over the area
>through posters and leaflets, while the English version was duly
>sent off to the governments, the media, the courts, and even the
>World Bank. Today, fifteen years later, the Auranga river remains
>unbound.
>
>
>In the mid-90s, we had another set of visitors, but this time from
>the high ranges of Kullu district in Himachal Pradesh. Their
>villages and hamlets were being threatened by the declaration of the
>Great Himalayan National Park. What exactly was this Park, they
>asked, and how could they protect their families? So, two months
>later, armed with the relevant documents and reports, we pitched
>camp in their village. A young bunch of grazers and farmers listened
>attentively as we explained how the government had commissioned a
>study in the 80s and how this study, conducted by a pair of
>specialists from the Pheasant Society in the UK and Canada, had come
>to the conclusion that only by declaring the Park as a protected
>area could the rare Western Himalayan Tragopan (a ground-dwelling
>bird) be saved. And then, as we presented the details of the study,
>the listeners grew restive. No, they protested, it is not possible
>for the Tragopan to be disturbed by our herds because it nests in
>late winter and our grazers go up only in late spring. Even that
>figure of 25,000 animals is wrong, they objected, our numbers rarely
>cross 12,000. And it is not us who destroy the herbs, but the Nepali
>labourers from the Terai, who are unfamiliar with alpine ecology and
>are hired by the traders in the plains.
>
>We suggested to them then that they should do their own study and
>compare their findings with what had been reported by the foreign
>experts. Very well, they responded immediately, tell us how to do
>the study. So, for the next two days, we demonstrated to them how to
>draw transects and conduct animal counts, how to document the
>diversity of grasses and shrubs, and how to systematically record
>their observations.As soon as the snows melted, six of them headed
>towards the alpine meadows, following the same route that the
>scientists had taken ten years earlier. Two porters who had been
>taken along to ferry the supplies to base camp (at heights of over
>3000 metres, one does not run into the occasional tea shop or
>restaurant!), became so familiar with the routines of measurement
>that they eventually became part of the study team. Six weeks later
>they returned, armed with a range of documented observations. A
>detailed examination of their records showed that they had
>successfully challenged every one of the findings of the
>government-sponsored study. In addition, their measurements
>indicated what was the carrying capacity of the meadows, how
>ruminants were in fact controlling weed infestation, and how the
>herbs could be harvested within the boundaries of conservation.
>
>This much, then, is certain: people fight their struggles for
>survival based on what knowledge they can create. Each one of the
>reports and studies cited above (and numerous others that have not
>been documented in both rural and urban areas) indicates that
>ordinary working people have the capacity to learn, to collect
>information, to look at it analytically, and eventually use it for
>bettering their own lives. This is, or should be, the central
>objective of "education". And yet, these are simple (and yet very
>complex) tasks that are not undertaken by our educational
>institutions. Didactic instruction, memorising by rote, and vomiting
>out useless information for futile examinations constitute the
>fundamentals of what passes for education in our schools and
>colleges. Perhaps there is a purpose to it all. Perhaps another
>Macaulay is required to explain it to us in yet another Minute. And
>perhaps, in some not too distant future, a group of young labourers
>will learn to document their own lives to tear this farce to pieces.
>
>
>
>A graduate (and post-graduate) from IIT Bombay, Dunu Roy heads
>Hazard Centre in New Delhi.
>
>
>
>
># You may be missing other accompanying blurbs, related stories, graphics etc.
>Link to this story as it appears on the site :-
><http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20070621&fname=dunuroy&sid=1>Knowledge
>As Weapon
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>
>Umesh Sharma
>
>Washington D.C.
>
>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>
>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>Harvard University,
>Class of 2005
>
>http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
>
>http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
>
>
>
>
>www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
>
>
>
>
>http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
>
>
>
>
>Which email service gives you
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/gmail/unlimited_storage/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48525/*http://uk.mail.yahoo.com>unlimited
>storage?
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>
>
>
>Umesh Sharma
>
>Washington D.C.
>
>1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
>
>Ed.M. - International Education Policy
>Harvard Graduate School of Education,
>Harvard University,
>Class of 2005
>
>http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
>
>http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
>
>
>
>
>www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
>
>
>
>
>http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows.
><http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTAEc2VjA21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU>Try
>it now.
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