[Assam] IIT Chief: Ram, science and religious belief
Krishnendu Chakraborty
krish_gau at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 20 15:05:32 CDT 2007
> Therefore, your attempt to paint ALL Hindus and more
> importantly ALL
> Muslims as irrational fundamentalists merely
> exposes your personal
> prejudices and misconceptions and does not refute
> my explanation of why it is uncouth to question
> others' faiths, as
>
Hmmm..... Did I say ALL Hindus and Mulsims are
Fundamentalist ... that damn English language !! let
us take an example of Muslim Rational. As rational,
he will not believe in GOD and then, if he do not
believe in GOD, he is not a Muslim !
By your famous twist, you are combining
fundamentalism to rationalism. Two are separate
animals. You can be a believer in God or your
religious practices or Ram or Ram Sethu et al without
being a FUNDAMENTAL
> a
> nominally Hindu family is enough to be labeled one;
>
Is birth into a nominal Christian family not enough
to be labeled one even if the person does not go
through Baptism ?
> faith that do not require fundamentalist submission
> to irrational
> beliefs. Good examples are Assamese Muslims, or many
> Indian Muslims
> or many Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, or many
> Lebanese Muslims,
> or Turkish Muslims or Iraqi Muslims or Israeli
> Muslims or even most
> American Muslims and British Muslims.
>
Good point. So can you, as a human, go and ask them
to prove that Prophet talked to God ? Or will they as
rational, dig into that ? Or for that matter demand
withdrwal of Haj subsidy (which will benefit India of
a couple of Crore Rs).
> Just ask Hindu
> Karunanidhi of DMK. He has staunchly defended his
> stance that Ram was
> a myth and refuses to withdraw his views as
Looks like you got a HUGE support. However,
Karunanidhi is NOT a rationalist but an OPPORTUNIST
... just like Advani. He is exploiting the Dravidian
sentiment where Ram is considered as a villain and
Ravan as a hero.
> traditions. But my first and most important identity
> is the human
> one. I know some Indians get thrown off by that, and
> one, in one of
> those Outlook India debates, even challenged that as
> being convenient
> , implying that I sprang that on him just to refute
> his arguments and
> that could not possibly believe that.
>
>
> And on that basis, that I am a human being, first
> and foremost; I do
> care about others of humankind,
I am relieved to know that you care about others of
humankind ... never saw you criticizing the killing of
Biharis in Assam :-)
Just a few days back you said you give a damn to what
India is doing or how India is improving. Are you
changing your stance?
And if you as a Human has right to meddle in others
Religious Belief, WHY would not Indersen or anyone
else have that right?
> is the human
> one. I know some Indians get thrown off by that, and
> one, in one of
> those Outlook India debates, even challenged that as
> being convenient
Why Indians? Why not ascribe it to Americans? If
Americans consider themself as Human, respecting
Humans, why do they go around killing in Vietnam, Iraq
et al.
> Why does it give you heartburn over my "meddling"
> in Ramsetu
> and for being critical of
> the irrational and self contradictory Hindu
> platitudes of Dr.
> Indiresan presented in the guise
> of a dispassionate scholarly discourse?
>
> Do you disagree with my arguments? If you do, which
> and why?
I appreciate your arugment that Indersen should
evaluate the impact of demolishing Ram Sethu or
investigating further on Ram etc.
Personally I believe there might be a king named Rama
based on whom Valmiki compiled Ramayana but there are
more fantasy then history in it.
and if you notice the basic storyline of Ramayan is
similar to Illiad. It may be based on same basic
story with regional flavor.
However, what I found disturbing (now and earlier
too) is why you are always up in arms against Hindus
but have no rational dissection against other
religions. As a Human you should, I guess ?
During the Babri masjid issue, I asked a BJP supporter
why they are trying to disturb the peace. And he
asked me why people do not raise any question when
Missionaries go around converting or when Muslims
destroy Hindu temples?
I had no answer.
--- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
> K:
>
> >**** C'da don't you think that "Hindu Rationalist"
> or
> >"Muslim Rationalist" is a Oxymoron. I would assume
> a
> >Rationalist will be an aethist. So every faith
> will
> >be "somebody else's" faith for him.
>
>
> *** They would be, if someone attempted to create
> such an animal.
>
> However, since Hindus do not require any
> indoctrination or
> acceptance of a certain set of
> ethical/moral/dogmatic/divine or
> otherwise required principles to BE a Hindu and
> that mere birth into
> a
> nominally Hindu family is enough to be labeled one;
> one CAN indeed
> be a rationalist, while referred to as a Hindu or
> identifying as a
> Hindu. In fact I know many like that. Some of them
> are my closest
> friends.
>
> But I do not know enough about Islam to offer a view
> or an opinion.
> My guess is that Islam requires the faithful to
> submit to a set of
> rules or standards, which do include doctrines or
> beliefs that could
> not be substantiated rationally. Therefore a Muslim
> Rationalist could
> be an oxymoron, IF one assumes that ALL Muslims are
> orthodox or are
> fundamentalists. Just like Hindus there are many
> Muslims, around the
> world, who, while identifying themselves as Muslims,
> tread a path of
> faith that do not require fundamentalist submission
> to irrational
> beliefs. Good examples are Assamese Muslims, or many
> Indian Muslims
> or many Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, or many
> Lebanese Muslims,
> or Turkish Muslims or Iraqi Muslims or Israeli
> Muslims or even most
> American Muslims and British Muslims.
>
hrelates to Indiresan's lament about his faith being
> singled out for
> ridicule while leaving Muslims and Christians alone.
> Just ask Hindu
> Karunanidhi of DMK. He has staunchly defended his
> stance that Ram was
> a myth and refuses to withdraw his views as
> demanded by Hinduttwa's
> supreme leader, LK Advani.
>
> > >BTW I believe Umesh followed your advise ....
>
>
> *** I don't recall advising Umesh about "-- -----
> But it is
> uncouth to go questioning others' faiths."
>
> The only advice I offered in this context was for
> him to consider
> remedial English reading and comprehension. Come to
> think of it, you
> too could benefit from it :-).
>
>
>
> > >You are not a Hindu (by your admission) ... so
> no
> >business meddling in Hindu faith; you are not an
> >Indian (by your own admission again), so HOW it
> will impact India
> >is not your business.
>
> *** Do I detect a tinge of disappointment here? As
> I explained I am
> an American and my ethnicity is Assamese. And I
> grew up among
> NOMINALLY Hindu people, of the Oxomiya variety and
> in those
> traditions. But my first and most important identity
> is the human
> one. I know some Indians get thrown off by that, and
> one, in one of
> those Outlook India debates, even challenged that as
> being convenient
> , implying that I sprang that on him just to refute
> his arguments and
> that could not possibly believe that.
>
>
> And on that basis, that I am a human being, first
> and foremost; I do
> care about others of humankind, regardless of the
> labels they sport
> or are assigned by their friends or enemies. I care
> about Oxomiyas,
> Biharis, Kashmiris, Pakistanis, Siletis, B'deshis,
> Muslims, Jews,
> Christians, Hindus, Indians, Sinhalese, Tamils and
> Afghans; if you
> catch my drift. That is why I have an interest in
> the goings on in
> South Asia, which affect all the people living in
> the region, NOT
> JUST Indians.
>
>
> *** Having answered your questions, may I ask YOU a
> couple of questions too?
>
> Why does it give you heartburn over my "meddling"
> in Ramsetu
> and for being critical of
> the irrational and self contradictory Hindu
> platitudes of Dr.
> Indiresan presented in the guise
> of a dispassionate scholarly discourse?
>
> Do you disagree with my arguments? If you do, which
> and why?
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:07 AM -0700 9/20/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty
> wrote:
> > >>>>>>Furthermore, it is one thing to be
> analytical
> >about ones own faith; to question its beliefs,
> >its myths, its dogmas; but quite another to do so
> >about somebody else's. One would have expected
> >Dr. Indiresan to be mindful of such nuances of
> >ordinary propriety and courtesy that he implies
> >others of lacking. It is NOT unbecoming of a
> >Hindu, even a nominal one, to questions Hindu
> >myths or superstitions or prejudices. For he is
> >the one who is being affected by them. But it is
> >uncouth to go questioning others' faiths. The
> >Hindu, widely bandied to be tolerant, has no
> >business meddling in
> >somebody else's faith, UNLESS, they are meddling
> >in his lifestyle or well-being by imposing their
> >will on matters of state, which affect everyone.
> >
> >>>>>>> That is the subtle but critical difference
> that
> >
> >Dr. Indiresan fails to note. That is why his big
> >argument against the 'rationalists'
> >
> >**** C'da don't you think that "Hindu Rationalist"
> or
> >"Muslim Rationalist" is a Oxymoron. I would assume
> a
> >Rationalist will be an aethist. So every faith
> will
> >be "somebody else's" faith for him.
> >
> >BTW I believe Umesh followed your advise ....
> >
> >----- But it is uncouth to go
> > >questioning others' faiths. The Hindu, widely
> >>bandied to be tolerant, has no business meddling
> >>in
> >>somebody else's faith, UNLESS, they are meddling
> >>in his lifestyle or well-being by imposing their
> >>will on matters of state, which affect everyone.
> >
> >You are not a Hindu (by your admission) ... so no
> >business meddling in Hindu faith; you are not an
> >Indian (by your own admission again), so HOW it
> will
> >impact India is not your business.
> >
> >
>
=== message truncated ===
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