[Assam] [WaterWatch] Ram, Science and Religious Belief
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Sun Sep 23 09:03:20 CDT 2007
Greetings Dr. G. We meet again in Waterwatch.
I tried to understand what you are saying. But need more than a little help.
Perhaps we need to go back to the issue in hand, and not dwell on
religion, faith, rationalism, scientists, so-called scientists,
rationalists, so-called rationalists, devotees, so-called
progressives, secularism, pseudo-secularism and so forth.
All these are semantic evasive tactics to obfuscate and avoid dealing
with the real issue: The need to evaluate the wisdom of destroying
the sea-bed features, RATIONALLY and deciding if it is good for not
just India and ALL Indians, but all other peoples and creatures whose
lives and livelihoods depend on the health of the bay/straits. Does
not matter if the sea-bed features called Ramsethu, were naturally
formed over millenia or Hanuman-led and monkey-brigade-built as
commissioned by Lord Ram himself. The latter is a manufactured
controversy by irrational people. And the scheme to destroy Ramsethu
is a ploy by other irrational people to enrich a few at the cost of
the many .
That is what is all about, wouldn't you think?
As a scientifically trained person ( pardon me if I am wrong, but so
I presume), what would YOUR prescription be?
Regards.
cm
At 1:50 PM +0100 9/20/07, DR MC GEORGE wrote:
>ATTn: Dear Friend
>Why the so called scientists have ever tried to
>find out the truth by analytical/statistical methods.
>Usually these are the ways that the scientists try and
>goes on trying.The Archeological Department could have
>tried to see whether the structure has got any
>engineering skill employed or not.The Mohanjodaro and
>Harrappa findings were the result of such works.To
>leave anything as myths and unscientific should have
>some basis /reasonings.How the story came to be so
>deeprooted in the minds of so many generations with
>out any break is to be researched.Let the so called
>rationalist thinkers/scientific people work it out and
>come with an answer.Instead of that to pretend that
>millions of devotees are following some myth as if the
>so called progressives are the only intelligent ones
>on earth is nothing but perversion.
>Dr.M.C.George,Advocate,INFAM(IndianFarmersMovement)
>--- Chan Mahanta <<mailto:cmahanta%40charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> There was an article in the Indian Express under
>> the heading "Ram, science and religious belief",
>> by P.V. Indiresan, a former Director of IIT ,
>> Chennai, which can be seen below. I responded to
>> it to the Indian Express. But if past experience
>> is any guide, it won't be posted either in the
>> Letter to the Editor section or in the Feedback
>> forum. Since it deals with the Ramsethu issue,
>> even though it was never mentioned by the author,
>> I thought Water Watch members might find it
>> relevant.
>>
>> cm
>>
>>
>>
>************************************************************************************************************
>>
>> Dr. Indiresan spent a lot of time pretending to
>> be singing the praises of scientific pursuits of
>> the truth and rational thinking. But really he
>> bares in this article, filled with inane
>> arguments , his own inability to reconcile
>> rational thinking expected of a man of his
>> stature as a technocrat and educationist,
>> supposedly excelling in inculcating an ethos of
>> learning with a critical and analytical approach
>> required of technical/scientific studies, with
>> irrational dogmas camouflaged as a defence of
>> Hindu 'sentiments' from an unfair and/or
>> selective challenges to the irrationalities of
>> the faith's myriad myths. Dr. Indiresan is
>> attempting to have it both ways, sporting the
>> aura of a rational technocrat while spouting
>> irrational arguments in defense of 'feelings' and
>> 'sentiments'.
>>
>> Allow me to explain:
>>
>>
>> >The same holds good in the case of Ram too;
>> >there is no proof that he existed; neither is
>> >there any >scientific proof that he did not
>> >exist. That is where ‘rational’
>scientists drift
>> >outside the scientific path. >They make
>> >assertions about matters of faith, forgetting
>> >their own principles. They can say, at the
>> >most, >there is no proof that Ram was a real
>> >person. They cannot proceed further and assert
>> >that Ram was >not a real person.
>>
>>
>> *** Fair enough. Rationalists cannot prove or
>> assert Lord Ram was NOT a real person. But what
>> does that have to do with the issue at hand:
>> Whether Ram-sethu was built by Ram or his
>> minions? Should the likes of Dr. Indiresan , no
>> doubt someone endowed with wisdoms that shallow
>> rationalists are deprived of , NOT pursue the
>> question to its logical end? Or would it amount
>> to attacking a soft-target, thus out of bounds
>> for the wise rationalist?
>>
>> *** Furthermore, a rational scientist /technocrat
>> would NOT stop at that. She would also dig deeper
>> to look at the REAL issue: Whether destroying
>> the geological features of the sea-bed referred
>> to as the Ram-sethu in Indian folklore is a
>> prudent thing to do, considering its many
>> ramifications that could be examined
>> scientifically. Is he doing that? Is he showing
>> any inclination to do that?
>>
>>
>> >But why not tolerate the dogma of scientists
>> >when no objections are raised about religious
>> >dogma?
>>
>> *** Scientific dogma is an oxymoron. While I am
>> acutely aware of Indians' proclivity for misusing
>> English words and phrases, often because it is a
>> foreign language, but many times willfully in
>> pursuit of less than noble ends; one would have
>> expected someone of the stature of Dr. Indiresan
>> to be a tad bit more careful. But it is a well
>> worn tactic to devalue and demonize objects of
>> one's dislike with clever use of words and
>> phrases when one is dealing with a paucity of
>> reason.
>>
>>
>> >In the Indian context, rationalists become
>> >dangerous, because they attack selectively. All
>> >religions >survive on myths. Rationalists would
>> >have been on more solid ground if they had
>> >attacked myths of all >religions.
>>
>> ***This is Dr. Indiresan's coup-de-grace in his
>> devaluing of rational thinking on the matter. Or
>> so one might think unless one is careful to
>> analyze it.
>>
>> Faith, even Dr. Indiresan would agree, is a very
>> PERSONAL thing. One does not have to be rational
>> about it, like he tells us. If so, it ought not
>> to be an issue to be injected into matters of
>> state, that affects ALL, regardless of their
>> faith/s; particularly to a state that is as
>> vastly diverse in its faiths as India is.
>>
>> Furthermore, it is one thing to be analytical
>> about ones own faith; to question its beliefs,
>> its myths, its dogmas; but quite another to do so
>> about somebody else's. One would have expected
>> Dr. Indiresan to be mindful of such nuances of
>> ordinary propriety and courtesy that he implies
>> others of lacking. It is NOT unbecoming of a
>> Hindu, even a nominal one, to questions Hindu
>> myths or superstitions or prejudices. For he is
>> the one who is being affected by them. But it is
>> uncouth to go questioning others' faiths. The
>> Hindu, widely bandied to be tolerant, has no
>> business meddling in
>> somebody else's faith, UNLESS, they are meddling
>> in his lifestyle or well-being by imposing their
>> will on matters of state, which affect everyone.
>>
>> That is the subtle but critical difference that
>> Dr. Indiresan fails to note. That is why his big
>> argument against the 'rationalists' in 'the
>> Indian context' is little more than yet another
>> foray into that twilight zone of foggy logic
>> where ordinary meanings of words and phrases no
>> longer operate, as in special Indian meanings to
>> "secularism", "democracy", "rationalist" and so
>> forth.
>>
>> What Dr. Indiresan tells us here is that in
>> spite of his implied approval of rational
>> thinking in general, he is unable to accept it
>> when it is not applied 'fairly' to ALL religions
>> 'in the Indian context' , as if it would somehow
>> rid Hinduism of its irrational burdens or absolve
>> the Ram-sethu issue of its irrationality. What he
>> demonstrates is his personal insecurity over his
>> own faith, unable to reconcile the dichotomy
> > imposed by injection of faith in affairs of state.
>>
>> No wonder that so many Indian scientists,
>> technocrats and intellectuals can cite chapter
>> and verse
>> of the collective wisdoms of mankind acquired to
>> date, but are unable to apply them for the
>> well-being of their own.
>>
>>
>> cm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>><http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Ram-science-and-religious-belief/218687/>http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Ram-science-and-religious-belief/218687/
>> >
>> >New Delhi, Spetember 19: A week is a long time
>> >in politics and the Ram Setu controversy may
>> >soon die down. But even as it fades away
>> >politically, it may linger intellectually.
>> >Everyone is agreed that the battle is between
>> >scientific attitude and faith. As Francis Bacon
>> >argued nearly 500 years ago, the scientific
>> >spirit requires that we accept nothing as true
>> >unless it can be verified by experiment. Karl
>> >Popper goes on to say that the purpose of
>> >scientific enquiry is to disprove a hypothesis,
>> >not buttress it. As Thomas Kuhn has explained,
>> >science re-writes its textbooks all the time.
>> >In stark contrast, religious texts are sacred;
>> >they are unalterable. Science holds a hypothesis
>> >untrue if it does not satisfy even one out a
>> >hundred conditions. For the faithful, belief is
>> >sanctified even if it comes true only once in a
>> >thousand times.
>> >In modern times, the proposition that science
>> >will replace faith has become an attractive one.
>> >Much that was a mystery earlier has now been
>> >rationalised through scientific discoveries.
>> >Inevitably, many more mysteries of the present
>> >will also get explained in years to come. But
>> >science has its limitations. For example, it can
>> >theorise how the universe began with a Big Bang,
>> >but not explain what agency caused it.
>> >Scientific theories are also fickle. Five years
>> >ago, hormone replacement therapy was the
>> >cure-all idea for older women. Now, it is
>> >anathema. Science propagates knowledge; it does
>> >not necessarily confirm wisdom. That is why
>> >stories about mad scientists remain a recurrent
>> >theme in cinema!
>> >There is no scientific proof that God exists;
>> >neither is there any proof that God does not
>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
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